[SIPForum-techwg] TCP vs. UDP (SP adoption of TCP?)

Tue May 20 17:32:22 EDT 2008

Joanne,

I admit that I have no statistics saying most PBXes don't support TCP,
that's just my impression.

If PBXes support TCP and SPs prefer TCP why are we then running over
UDP?

I've also been under the impression that the issue is with the SPs, but
I'm enterprise focused so it might be wrong.

/Janne

________________________________

From: Joanne McMillen [mailto:joanne at avaya.com] 
Sent: den 20 maj 2008 22:41
To: Janne Magnusson; Uzelac, Adam; techwg at sipforum.org
Subject: Re: [SIPForum-techwg] TCP vs. UDP (SP adoption of TCP?)

This is interesting - hadn't heard it was "most PBXs" - thought it was
more an

issue with SPs...

That's been my limited observation anyway - SP adoption of TCP, not
PBX...

Joanne

	----- Original Message ----- 

	From: Janne Magnusson <mailto:janne at ingate.com>  

	To: Uzelac, Adam <mailto:Adam.Uzelac at globalcrossing.com>  ;
techwg at sipforum.org 

	Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 1:27 PM

	Subject: Re: [SIPForum-techwg] TCP vs. UDP (SP adoption of TCP?)

	Adam,

	Good to hear that you support TCP. But why do you think UDP is
the dominating protocol today? Is there any rational reason to why most
SIP Trunks are delivered over UDP (besides the obvious fact that most
PBXes only support UDP today)?

	/Janne

________________________________

	From: techwg-bounces at sipforum.org
[mailto:techwg-bounces at sipforum.org] On Behalf Of Uzelac, Adam
	Sent: den 20 maj 2008 21:01
	To: Dan York; Richard Shockey
	Cc: techwg at sipforum.org; Russell Bennett
	Subject: Re: [SIPForum-techwg] TCP vs. UDP (SP adoption of TCP?)

	Skipping the survey - in our "SIP Trunking" product-line we
support TCP today and would, therefore, be compliant with 1.1 day one.
(assuming TCP is a MUST)  It's in our production network today, though,
in vast orders of magnitude, there's more UDP than TCP .  For what it's
worth.  

	Adam Uzelac

	Global Crossing

	Director, Converged Network Architecture and Planning

	585-563-4359

________________________________

		From: techwg-bounces at sipforum.org
[mailto:techwg-bounces at sipforum.org] On Behalf Of Dan York
		Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 2:17 PM
		To: Richard Shockey
		Cc: 'Russell Bennett'; techwg at sipforum.org
		Subject: Re: [SIPForum-techwg] TCP vs. UDP (SP adoption
of TCP?)

		I agree as well... but would ask the question that I did
in a response to Greg earlier.  Do we know how many likely candidates
for the SIPconnect 1.1 certification would support TCP & UDP versus
UDP-only? 

		If the overwhelming majority of products that would
likely go after the SIPconnect 1.1 certification either already support
TCP or have it on their near-term roadmap to do so (and would provide
upgrades to existing products), then this discussion is really moot.  If
on the other hand the vast majority would only support SIP over UDP in
the next 12 months (which I personally don't think is the case), then
that is a good data point to know relative to the potential uptake of
the SIPconnect 1.1 cert.

		Anyone want to run an anonymous surveymonkey.com survey
or something like that?

		Dan

		P.S. Of the products/services currently certified for
SIPconnect 1.0, how many of them support SIP over TCP? (Or will in the
next 12 months?)

		On May 20, 2008, at 1:21 PM, Richard Shockey wrote:

		Agree 200%  :-)

		From: techwg-bounces at sipforum.org
[mailto:techwg-bounces at sipforum.org] On Behalf Of Joanne McMillen
		Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 1:05 PM
		To: Russell Bennett; Zweig, Greg; techwg at sipforum.org
		Subject: Re: [SIPForum-techwg] TCP vs. UDP (SP adoption
of TCP?)

		Agree 100%

		Joanne

			----- Original Message -----

			From: Russell Bennett
<mailto:Russell.Bennett at microsoft.com> 

			To: Zweig, Greg <mailto:gzweig at sonusnet.com>  ;
techwg at sipforum.org

			Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 9:20 AM

			Subject: Re: [SIPForum-techwg] TCP vs. UDP (SP
adoption of TCP?)

			Greg et al.

			I have already agreed that we have to
accommodate the past, but we also have to drive the future.  If we "make
it OK to just offer UDP" then that is what people will think that it is
acceptable to do.

			I have been actively engaged with a number of
service providers for quite some time now and, without naming names or
providing timelines, I can assure you that TCP is being deployed by
service providers.

			As for encouraging quick adoption - the issue is
not one of which SIP Transport is best/cheapest/already there; the issue
is one of simple economics: SIP Trunks cannibalize Service Provider
revenues under existing pricing models.  The SPs who offer "UDP only"
are seeing little demand for SIP Trunking - what they don't realize is
that it is a "chicken and egg" problem.

			We must move SP SIP connectivity capability
forward such that SPs can start to deploy revenue generating services
and applications to replace revenue lost by decrementing PRI trunks.  We
can only get to a service federation model by moving rapidly beyond SIP
Voice.  If we can't *even* get to more broadly deployed SIP Voice, then
(some) SPs will remain where they are - stuck in the 20th century.

			Forward looking SPs that I work with have heard
this loud and clear.

			UDP should be a 'MUST' to support older
architectures.  TCP MUST be a 'MUST' to support newer architectures.  I
don't see how we accommodate the past and drive the future any other
way.

			Russell

			-----Original Message-----
			From: techwg-bounces at sipforum.org
[mailto:techwg-bounces at sipforum.org] On Behalf Of Zweig, Greg
			Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 11:39 AM
			To: Peter Dunkley; techwg at sipforum.org
			Subject: Re: [SIPForum-techwg] TCP vs. UDP (SP
adoption of TCP?)

			Agreed -- We also have to consider the
capabilities at the customer
			premise.  I wouldn't want to advocate a solution
that drives end
			customers into a position where their existing
equipment is made
			obsolete.  There are many products in-use that
could be upgraded to
			other facets of a SIPconnect 1.1 implementation
but will never cost
			effectively support TCP.  I want to embrace
them, not disenfranchise
			them.

			We need to accommodate the past while we drive
the future.

			Greg Zweig
			Sonus Networks. Inc
			(978) 614-8027

			-----Original Message-----
			From: techwg-bounces at sipforum.org
[mailto:techwg-bounces at sipforum.org]
			On Behalf Of Peter Dunkley
			Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 2:23 PM
			To: techwg at sipforum.org
			Subject: Re: [SIPForum-techwg] TCP vs. UDP (SP
adoption of TCP?)

			The danger with this approach is that you will
may end up with a
			wonderful SIPconnect 1.1 recommendation that the
writers/purists love
			but is unpalatable to the industry.

			There needs to be a pragmatic approach taken
that illustrates what SIP
			trunking should be, while still encouraging
quick adoption.

			Making SPs have to choose between changing their
architecture or
			becomming compliant will not encourage them to
adopt SIPconnect (quickly

			or otherwise).

			Russell Bennett wrote:
			> All,
			>
			> I know from trying to work with the SPs on SIP
Trunking that *some*
			SPs are going to take a firm position on the
support of UDP only.   The
			question that Janne poses is:
			>
			>         1) Are we going to define SC1.1 to be
what a SIP Trunk service
			should be (e.g. UDP *and* TCP, among many other
things)?
			>         OR
			>         2) Write SC1.1 to be what we think
will enroll more SPs in the
			SC compliance program?
			>
			> I argue strongly against 2 - this would not be
a step forward on
			SC1.0.  3261 is very clear on TCP support.  If
SIP Forum was a
			commercial entity, then we would go for 2 to
maximize revenue.
			>
			> However, SF is a standards body and it is
incumbent upon us to develop
			SC1.1 as a *correct*, albeit pragmatic,
document.  The key is the
			balance between pragmatism and correctness and
I, for one, think that
			accommodating SPs that are mired in the 20th
century is the wrong side
			of that balance.
			>
			> Russell
			>
			>

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		-- 

		Dan York, CISSP, Director of Emerging Communication
Technology

		Office of the CTO    Voxeo Corporation
dyork at voxeo.com

		Phone: +1-407-455-5859  Skype: danyork
http://www.voxeo.com

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		Build voice applications based on open standards.

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